Why control a corporation?

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titule
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Re: Why control a corporation?

Post by titule »

eleaza wrote:And if players have more than 75% control of an existence corporations, they will behave just like set up subsidiaries as well.
That would be what I want and expect.
But this is what I observe:
I, my player, owns a private company "Enris".
The player also owns 97.68% of "Mankind", a corporation. The other 2.32% are still owned by the previous owner, who is still the CEO. I can view Managment Policies, but not adjust them. I can got to Mankind headquarter and walk right into the CEO's office and see her annual salary but neither can I change it nor can I fire her.
I can acquire technology from Mankind, but the CEO asks a price I don't want to pay.. out of control.
I can see the stores and factory but have no say in what they do or what prices they ask for. I can't take over a facility unless the CEO sets it for sale. Again, I have no influence on the price.

Subsidiaries behave very differently.

Is that a bug, are you wrong, am I doing something wrong, or do I misunderstand you?
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eleaza
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Re: Why control a corporation?

Post by eleaza »

titule wrote:
eleaza wrote:And if players have more than 75% control of an existence corporations, they will behave just like set up subsidiaries as well.
That would be what I want and expect.
But this is what I observe:
I, my player, owns a private company "Enris".
The player also owns 97.68% of "Mankind", a corporation. The other 2.32% are still owned by the previous owner, who is still the CEO. I can view Managment Policies, but not adjust them. I can got to Mankind headquarter and walk right into the CEO's office and see her annual salary but neither can I change it nor can I fire her.
I can acquire technology from Mankind, but the CEO asks a price I don't want to pay.. out of control.
I can see the stores and factory but have no say in what they do or what prices they ask for. I can't take over a facility unless the CEO sets it for sale. Again, I have no influence on the price.

Subsidiaries behave very differently.

Is that a bug, are you wrong, am I doing something wrong, or do I misunderstand you?
You can manage policies after 75%, and you can fire her at 100% (usually it's not a good idea to fire default CEO of the original corporation, since you don't have to set a salary for it, even when your corp own 100% share). If you can not manage policies at 75% than it might be a bug, and you could upload a save file and report it to David.

Usually technology is fairly cheap (comparably), so it's not a problem, and what subsidiary earned during the tech trade counts toward its profit that year, you can set the desired dividend rate, and the cash will be back next year. If you want to mass acquire their techs right at the instance, just merger it, and then recreate the sub.

You can set the factory price of a sub, like any firm you own. And you can transfer firm between you and your subs. And again if you can not do any of that, either you don't have subsidiary DLC turned on, or it's a bug. And you should provide a save file and help resolve the issue.
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titule
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Re: Why control a corporation?

Post by titule »

What you say is only true when the shares are owned by a corporation, not when the character owns the shares.

So you can only fire a CEO of a corporation controlled by a corporation (and so on I guess) you control, but not if you directly "control" it.
Try it. Have your player buy enough shares of a corporation and let me know if you could fire its CEO.

Meanwhile I think this really is a bug.
Cheers
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eleaza
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Re: Why control a corporation?

Post by eleaza »

titule wrote:What you say is only true when the shares are owned by a corporation, not when the character owns the shares.

So you can only fire a CEO of a corporation controlled by a corporation (and so on I guess) you control, but not if you directly "control" it.
Try it. Have your player buy enough shares of a corporation and let me know if you could fire its CEO.

Meanwhile I think this really is a bug.
Cheers
It has been like this since Capitalism 2. And you can check out this old post. You can your company are separate entities by law even in real life.
http://www.capitalismlab.com/forum/view ... =20#p17065

If you think it's a bug (which it really isn't, but more like an old game mechanics, and let the accounting of a holding company consistent without "personal accounting"), please just write your reason, and post it on the Suggestions sub-forum. This forum is designed as a place for player's feedback. And for complain like this, it really shouldn't belong to "Strategy Tips" sub-forum.
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David
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Re: Why control a corporation?

Post by David »

If you think it's a bug (which it really isn't, but more like an old game mechanics, and let the accounting of a holding company consistent without "personal accounting"),
What eleaza wrote above is true.

There may be unintended consequences if this is allowed to happen in the game.

Having said that, we do intend to implement it in the next post-beta release to let players experiment with it and see if there is going to be a chance that it will work without creating exploits or accounting inconsistency.
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eleaza
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Re: Why control a corporation?

Post by eleaza »

David wrote:
If you think it's a bug (which it really isn't, but more like an old game mechanics, and let the accounting of a holding company consistent without "personal accounting"),
What eleaza wrote above is true.

There may be unintended consequences if this is allowed to happen in the game.

Having said that, we do intend to implement it in the next post-beta release to let players experiment with it and see if there is going to be a chance that it will work without creating exploits or accounting inconsistency.
The most obvious exploit of a "personal owned corporation" is tunnelling this sub's fund through personal account. Since there's no person's accounting book, the losses in a person's account is never reflected in player's corporation account. After player tunnelling all the fund through leverage to the max, a player can simply sell all the stock in this sub and let it goes bankrupt on its own. There will be zero consequence for player's corporation in this kind of tunnelling exploit.

There's a reason why in the real world insider trading is so heavily punished by law.
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Arcnor
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Re: Why control a corporation?

Post by Arcnor »

eleaza wrote:
David wrote:
If you think it's a bug (which it really isn't, but more like an old game mechanics, and let the accounting of a holding company consistent without "personal accounting"),
What eleaza wrote above is true.

There may be unintended consequences if this is allowed to happen in the game.

Having said that, we do intend to implement it in the next post-beta release to let players experiment with it and see if there is going to be a chance that it will work without creating exploits or accounting inconsistency.
The most obvious exploit of a "personal owned corporation" is tunnelling this sub's fund through personal account. Since there's no person's accounting book, the losses in a person's account is never reflected in player's corporation account. After player tunnelling all the fund through leverage to the max, a player can simply sell all the stock in this sub and let it goes bankrupt on its own. There will be zero consequence for player's corporation in this kind of tunnelling exploit.

There's a reason why in the real world insider trading is so heavily punished by law.
I just want to point out that one of my biggest strategies in the game is to do something nearly like this. Granted I do it with a corporation.

I will target a competitor (Comp A) and buy out control. I then have it create a sub (Comp B). Comp B goes public where their worth is in the low millions range. I then use Comp A to buy up 100% of Comp B. I then max out the competitors credit line (typically $5 to 10 billion) which adds billions to usually already billions in cash. I transfer assets I want to my company or one of my other subs. I have Comp A issue the max market demand for their shares. I buy any of the newly issued shares I need to keep at least 75%. Then transfer all of Comp A's cash to Comp B. I buy up all the stock of Comp B (typically in the $14 - $30 range) and merge Comp B into my company. This typically nets me at least $10 - $20 billion in cash. Comp A is usually left with only a few million from my purchase of Comp B stock. I then usually dump my stock in Comp A. Sometimes this results in losses for me, but 90% of the time another comp is buying what I'm selling so the price is usually stable.

In the end, I end up with a bunch of new assets, a ton of cash, and a competitor that goes out of business within a few months. Comp A really has no hope of continuing since they can't even raise capital through the issuance of stock.

It's really a win win usually for me. Typically any losses I have are more then offset by raiding the target company's assets and loading up on cash.

I usually can take my company from having $5 billion in cash to having $35 billion when its all done. I then just go after bigger fish in the market with my war chest.
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