AI cheats with research/talent?!

[Brutus]

Right so I was headhunting for the top honchos and it seems the AI has an inexhaustible source of top talent just spawning into existence from the deep void to replace the guy who is headhunted away from them. They don't seem to replace their slots with actual hire-able talent from the pool but just get a free instant replacement with the same skills ... like what the hell

So if I actually want to boost research, all I need to do is headhunt from AI's and get an inexhaustible source of 99 skilled guys for every possible vacancy I have ... the pool of talent then means very little since you can just spawn in more 99 skill level talent at a whim if you head hunt for them from the infinite pool. Yeah sure you pay a tiny premium up front but we're talking the elite talent here ... they should be scarce for a reason if you play with the full talent system on. Now you can just spawn them in through the AI and bypass the whole talent pool altogether.

What is the purpose of headhunting then? If I can't influence the AI's research efficiency by stealing their top scientists, it foils my plans of derailing their research efforts and it just makes the whole headhunting gimmick even more gimmicky and less fun and interactive. Just spoils my fun really for being able to sticking it to the AI's

Really the AI should NOT be spawning in new talent at a whim like this and they should suffer when their head talent is hunted away in reduced tech development output. Just look at what happened to Bioware they got the shit headhunted out of their top developers or they went away to greener pastures and the bioware studio has gone to shit. All the good talent is gone and the products while visually beautiful were pieces of garbage quality wise lately.

Also headhunting is disabled for any talent that has 80 happiness or more (or loyalty whatever) but its entirely based on money and under what rationale would a talent NOT move to another company if they offered twice the pay and a year bonus?! There's really no reason why a talent would instantly be loyal once he reaches a certain income threshold. I can kinda get behind the idea somewhat but it is also quite stupidly implemented. Training your peons also comes with the caveat that they increase in skill ... making them actually want to leave more?! Yeah thanks boss for training me and making me competent, now I'm leaving you since my loyalty is entirely based on how much you pay me up until I am 80% happy lolololo after which any extra money doesn't matter at all.

It makes much more sense that when you headhunt them that they will be LOCKED in for the duration of the research cycle that you assign them too. You know ... what you actually hired them for to begin with. So if you headhunt them and make them part of a team that does a 5 year research cycle, then they should be contractually hired to work for that cycle, after which they become free to be headhunted again.

Also when you suffer from getting headhunted as a victim rather than perpetrator , you should be allowed to do a counter-offer to prevent your precious little peons from getting robbed away from you. After which you can make the decision to match their offer or let them go.

This will likely cause the top talent to become extremely expensive over time ... but isn't that the whole point of the talent system? That you pay a premium for better tech development. Or you can hire the cheapo's and train them up.

If I recall correctly, but I may be wrong here so correct me if I am, a while back when I was playing with the talent system that when you headhunted from AI's they had to actually replace their guys with talent from the pool and suffered in tech development as a consequence. That system, while exploitable, was a lot more fun.

[David]

If I recall correctly, but I may be wrong here so correct me if I am, a while back when I was playing with the talent system that when you headhunted from AI's they had to actually replace their guys with talent from the pool and suffered in tech development as a consequence. That system, while exploitable, was a lot more fun.

I forwarded your query to the programmer and got the reply confirming that there has been no change to the programming code and game logic on hiring talents. The AI simply does not spawn talents nor exploit.

When you got the impression that the AI was spawning talents, the AI might actually be headhunting talents from other companies to replace the missing talents.

[Brutus]

When you got the impression that the AI was spawning talents, the AI might actually be headhunting talents from other companies to replace the missing talents.

No no no ... I double checked just right now. They definitely spawn in new top talent from the void and stealing talent has no effect on their research development (at least not for PRODUCT TECH)

Check out the screenshots of my current game below.

Some info:
There's only 2 companies doing research in 'house hold' products in my game. They are Pur Treasure and Perspective. They each employ 5 and 2 talents accordingly. Pur Treasure has one guy at 80 loyalty and can't be headhunted. This leaves us with a total of 6 headhunt-able people. But before we start snatching, let's see what they can actually hire to replace them with.

This is the talent pool at start before I fill up my R&D center with 'household product' talent by headhunting them. Game Settings is talent pool at NORMAL. This is a small developed city of only 1.85 million people, so talent is quite limited.

TalentPool.png (1.57 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

As you can see the next top talent is Patty Mathis at 92 skill. This is the pool that any company should start hiring from if their guys are headhunted and they can't headhunt for better talent elsewhere to replace them with.

This is Pur Treasure's R&D center with 5 talents doing research on washing powder, 1 guy can't be headhunted (80 Loyalty) leaving us with 4 possible guys to steal.

PurTreasureRD.png (1.56 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

This is Perspective's R&D Center with 2 talents doing research on toilet cleaner, these 2 guys can be headhunted.

PerspectiveRD.png (2.03 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

This is the headhuntable pool, there's only 6 candidates according to the list, it also names the 6 guys, they all correspond to the guys from Pur Treasure and Perspective that can be headhunted. The game does NOT give me the ability to headhunt for any others as there are no other talents employed elsewhere that research household products (look I'm at the bottom of the list already). Therefore these are all the guys that are out there in my game currently. Any other talent needs to be replaced from the original talent pool itself.

HeadHuntablePoolEnd.png (1.71 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

Now I hire all 6 of these top talents through headhunting them.

HeadHuntedRD1.png (1.93 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

Look Mark Phelps is part of my new team in this screenshot, in fact all the top talent are in my R&D center now. But look ... I found 3 more guys with talent of 98 ... they are the replacements that Pur Treasure hired from the deep dark void and they have 98 skill too and I consequently headhunted them as well to fill in more R&D units.

This is what the Headhunt pool now displays after I have already headhunted the 6 top talents away + 3 new mystery guys from the void. Look all these guys are skill 98 when the next guy should be Patty Mathis at 92 skill.

NewHeadhuntPool.png (1.71 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

But Patty Mathis is never taken from the pool. Patty Mathis is still in the original talent pool. (picture not shown because it is EXACTLY the same as the picture of the original talent pool)

In fact, I can fill up many more R&D centers with top talent by headhunting into the AI void. The new spawned in talent DOES decrease VERY slightly in skills, but often by just a single skill point for every 9 spawned in guys. I've managed to fill 3 more R&D centers with guys from the void all with skills of 96 or higher. Look this is the fourth R&D center I filled with headhunted people from the void. The lowest person had 95 skill.

3MoreR&DCentersFilledWithTopTalent.png (1.72 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

It's only 1994. These aren't guys that were trained up over time. I've spawned in as many new guys with talent above 95 as there are talent in the ENTIRE original pool with skills ranging from 30 to 92 (Patty Mathis being the highest of them originally). I should be at the bottom of the list already but they just keep spawning in top talent. In fact, I've filled up a total of 6 R&D centers with talent with skill above 92. There were only 36 talents (skill ranges from 30 to 99) total in the entire game for house hold products before I started headhunting the six top talents away and I've managed to fill up another 5x9 or more than 54 positions with talent with a skill above 92.

SixthRD.png (1.92 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

Poor Patty Mathis will never be hired if this keeps on going. Well thats not entirely true ... I've finally managed to dig my way to the bottom of the talent list to meet Patty.

PattyMathis.png (1.7 MiB) Viewed 1117 times

Look Patty Mathis finally showed up in the list!

I can put him in my 7th R&D center to research household products ... oh no ... he's actually useless because there's only 4 household products and I've already filled 4 R&D centers with the top talent from the deep dark void. He will never get to do any research on household products.

Patty Mathis's college degree in Household products is useless! Give Patty Mathis a break and stop spawning in talent from the void! Patty Mathis deserves a job opportunity without reality bending over backwards spawning in guys that shouldn't exist that take his job opportunity away from him! Poor Patty Mathis just wants to do his job but he is made irrelevant in today's top talent spawning in from the void economy!

You can very easily reproduce this bug/effect by just starting a new game. I recommend 1 city, normal talent pool and only a handful of competitors and then just checking the total talent at start of the game, see what the AI hires, and then start headhunting them away after a year or two. The game will spawn in more talent to replace them and soon you'll have entire rows of R&D centers filled with talent that shouldn't exist according to the original talent pool. New top talent is spawned in instantaneously.

Even if you hire from the original talent pool and don't headhunt, you'll find that the game spawns in some decent talent often with better skills than the batch you just hired. So instead of pressing the ''Hire All'' button and be done with it, it's better to do a second hiring run and hire each guy individually because a new guys might spawn in that have better skills. Headhunting by far seems to the most effective way to spawn in infinite top talent though. The AI corps get an automatic replacement with the equivalent or a tiny -1 skill point reduction from their predecessor. The talent pool does eventually dry up, but we're talking dozens if not more R&D centers here ...

The bottom tier talent is entirely useless in this current system and is hardly ever even touched. In fact poor Patty Mathis even though he scored a 92 on his college exams and wasn't part of the top super 6 was still only eligible for a college job after 45 guys preceded him from the deep dark void. No wonder college educated people in today's economy can barely get a decent paying job, when even a top student like Patty Mathis can't get hired after graduating Cum Laude from his college. What's Patty Mathis to do in this situation?

A good investigation regarding the talent system would be in order. It definitely doesn't seem to work as is expected/intended.

To summarize how it works right now:
New talent is spawned in as soon as old talent is hired filling up the candidate list up to a point (this point being waaay to large right now to be meaningful). This new talent has potentially (quite often) better skills than the guys you just hired. Making it so that you need to go back to the hiring interface and hire again a second run each guy individually to replace the lowest talent with the new spawned in top talents, rince and repeat a few times to optimize your hired talents. Or cheese the system entirely and headhunt them away from AI's. This last option is by far the best as it produces consistent high skilled talent. As long as you can headhunt a really good skilled guy, you can farm that AI for good skilled talent since they will instantly spawn an equivalent talent. If the AI has an 100 skilled guy and you can headhunt him then they spawn another 100 skilled guy, which you can headhunt, and another spawns, headhunt it again, and another spawns, and again and again and again ... oh wait ... no ... now they spawned a 99 skilled guy this is how you fill your R&D centers with 100 skill guys when the normal talent pool doesn't support this possibility at all. It's total cheese.

What I'd prefer:
The talent pool at start is all the talent that there is initially and no extra is spawned in magically. Every new year some new talent is spawned ranging from bottom to top tier depending on education/development levels and size of the city. New top talent can be spawned but is RARE. The talent pool is filled up to a certain number of talents. When new higher talent is spawned in than what is currently available in the list then the lowest talent gets booted out of the list and replaced with new talent to simulate how people who are bad in a field go to other careers or get squeezed out by better performing talents. When you headhunt from an AI, they should NOT get an instantaneous replacement from the void with similar skill level but instead should be forced to hire from the regular hiring pool like any other schlob.

Optional: When you headhunt or hire for talent, you can sign a 5 year exclusivity non-compete contract with them that forbids them from getting hired/headhunted by other companies. After the 5 years, they can be head hunted again but you can also counter-offer them and sign another 5 year contract matching the offer of the headhunting company, locking them in for another 5 years. You can only do this twice for each talent so that after 10 years, the talent can be headhunted by another company if they so desire. This is to keep flexibility in the talent pool system so it does not becoming so static with one company having all the best talent forever. You can headhunt them back once they have their 2 terms up at the other company. Or if the AI deems it too expensive to hire your guy they will never headhunt them to begin with lol, allowing you to keep them safely.

So if you want to test this whole thing about AI's spawning in more top talent. Let the game run long enough so that there is at least 1 guy that you can headhunt, that is the requirement. As long as there is 1 guy that you can headhunt, you can infinitely farm this company for top notch skilled talent as they continue to spawn new ones every single time without fail for every guy you headhunt from them. Going so far as drawing them from the dark corners of the abyss.

Lastly, plz donate to the Patty Mathis foundation for disgruntled college graduates that got side lined by talent from the void. Immigrants should not take your hard earned college jobs!

[Brutus]

After playtesting around some more.

DIgital Age's Software Company does suffer from technology development loss when a talent is stolen away and software (in the software company) and internet talent (in the R&D center using 'Tech RD' units) does indeed seem to follow the appropriate rules where the talent pool actually dries up after a while. You also can't headhunt into the void nearly as much when it comes to Software and Internet talent (like barely to none, so that's good). There's only a very small buffer where the talent pool gets replenished up to the 30 talents before it it starts to dry up (unless you use 100% more talent, then you have a small buffer but tolerable and not really cheesable). Headhunted talent from this pool also appropriately takes talent away from the real talent pool as is intended. All I can say is that Digital Age DLC Software Company's talent seems to work fine and as intended from what I can gather in terms of how ''talent'' is supposed to work. With a small exception, more on that at the end.

This problem seems to exist primarily with the ''Product Technology'' talent in the R&D Center using the 'Product R' business units from the base game when digital age DLC is enabled. For the traditional products talent seems to be generated from an infinite pool. The pool NEVER drops below 30 talents available. Well I don't know if it NEVER goes below 30 but I build 40 tech centers in a single city 10 ai's game, normal talent pool, filled with household product research guys before I got bored pressing the duplicate and hire all buttons and they just keep spawning even top notch 90+ skilled guys or better so either the talent pool buffer is HUGE and irrelevant or simply infinite when it comes to 'Product Technology' talent. Perhaps this was done to balance it out when a lot of companies are in the market at the same time. So that literally every company can run research on any product at full power at any time. But then what is the point of the talent function for the traditional products anyway? This product group also has the infamous infinite headhunting for top skill feature where you can keep headhunting from a magical seemingly infinite pool of top talent that shouldn't exist.

Another interesting thing I found is with all the research done in the R&D Center you can hire all the top talent, start a research project for lets say 5 years. Then sack all of the top talent and replace them with flunkies with low skill. And it won't matter at all. After the 5 year tech cycle is up, you get the full bonus as if they were the top talent. This way you can cheese the system if you are dedicated in clicking that is ... just fill up one R&D center with top talent, start a tech cycle you prefer. Then replace them with bad talent, setup a new R&D center up again fill it with the same top talent you filled up the first one with, and you can then get the maximum research bonus in every R&D center even if you don't normally have the top talent to support it under normal circumstances. They must be multi-tasking geniuses or something. I don't think this works as is intended ... This bug also works with the 'Internet' technology that is done in the R&D Center's 'Tech R&D' business units, in fact, this bug is an R&D center only thing it seems. This also means that stealing away talent from another AI has no effect on their actual tech development when it concerns either Product Technology research or Internet Technology. I really wish the R&D Centers worked more like the Software Company in this regard.

Lastly one nitpick I have with Software Companies is that while you can build R&D centers away from road and fill up gaps with them, you can't do the same with software companies, they MUST be built next to roads. Why? They are essentially the same type of company. Hell the Software company employs only 1/3rd the employees compared to a R&D center but can't be build off-road? It makes little sense. Plz enable Software companies (and all small shops plz) to be build away from roads. That frees up a tiny bit of space that can be used in the game to jam pack those businesses tighter lol.