Poll: Starting the game in 1900. Under this backdrop, more products would need to be invented.

[David]

Do you like the idea of starting the game in 1900? Under this backdrop, more products would need to be invented.

In 1900, all the electronic products including computers, phones, video game consoles, and a majority of home appliances are not available yet. Companies must conduct research to invent them.

This will reduce the range of products available to the player in the beginning of the game, thus leading to increased competition by AI companies and improving the gameplay (Right now there are too many product categories in the MODs and there is a general lack of competition in most of the product categories in the beginning of the game.)

The current game system and the AI are not designed to support such a dramatic range of product inventions. Do you think dev resources should be allocated to improve it?

[piermario]

Yes i think competition in begining of the game is very lack, usually i start to play after 20 years.
It would be great if we have option to start already in a competitive and developed world without wait so long.
Maybe AI could create random world at the beginning of the game.
Thanks P.

[avengerbg]

I think its a good idea, but also i think more products should be added for later game, just a thought, may be talk with developer of realworld mod and include some or all of his work as part of the game. You can also improve some of it and such.... Also for mods like thia current map sizes are simply not enough, may be add option to choose map size and increase the current size to at least 2 times then current ones if possible.

[David]

I think its a good idea, but also i think more products should be added for later game, just a thought, may be talk with developer of realworld mod and include some or all of his work as part of the game. You can also improve some of it and such

Please see this related post: http://www.capitalism2.com/forum/viewto ... =14&t=7063

Also for mods like thia current map sizes are simply not enough, may be add option to choose map size and increase the current size to at least 2 times then current ones if possible.

I've set up this poll to collect more data: http://www.capitalism2.com/forum/viewto ... =14&t=7308

[saffgee]

One problem is that mods and expansions don't always play that well together. What I mean is that Mods tend to focus on expanding product sets and available products to allow for a greater range of possible items in game, whereas expansions tend to drill down into one specialist area of development, like software or banks and then add whole new standalone sets of products or themes. The fact that these new mechanics or products can be difficult for modders to tap into in gameplay terms means that sometimes the two together don't create as much fun as they could. I don't think any of us modders have taken it upon ourselves to mod all the expansions as well yet to round things out better for someone who switches on everything.
It means that game play often tends to focus on doing one or the other rather than both (eg normal product stuff and/or expansion stuff) - and if you do do both, things tend to quickly take an unrealistic turn. eg. You create Microsoft to sell software and then finance your early company expansion by selling fruit and veg, or you launch HSBC, but because there isn't much to do with banking operationally, you start opening supermarkets next door to your branches. A game starting in the 1900's would almost certainly preface that many of those expansions are shut off and in addition all the mods would need an overhaul to accommodate this type of gameplay as well.

That said, I would be hugely in favour of vanilla getting a product overhaul and/or some dev time to improve AI competitiveness and capability in complex product chains/groups. The AI already seems to grasp the concept of invention quite readily, so I'm fairly sure this would all be moddable under the current system - it's literally as simple as looking up what products become available when and setting the "date available" and "replaced by", etc fields accordingly. This could certainly be an interesting project for a modder and it is something I already have on a small scale in my mod (with communication devices, computers, etc all having start dates when they can be researched, as well as products like cigarettes phasing out slowly over time). As to whether the AI can effectively handle all this I don't really know; it does at times struggle with my complexity mod, so it could likely do with some improvements to its logic chains.

One other potential issue with a 1900's game is that due to the high number of products that come and go over the years, a modded game will run out of product slots fairly quickly - the product limit may need to go up in order for larger and more complex product sequences to be added, with little loss to current overall product numbers. Eg: Computers and consoles are a case in point, where if you track it from the 80's, there are broadly 3-7 different frontline products that dominate sales during each decade and in order to differentiate, each would need its own product row/column, plus not forgetting all of the inputs necessary to make those items. You could be looking at using 100-200 of the product limit just to get computers from the 80's to today. All depending of course on how "realistic" you want to make it. This also raises the question of availability vs popularity. For example SUV's have been available far longer than they've been popular, meaning we could either set things up for realism or game playability, but not really both.

Overall I like the idea though and will certainly be spending some time to script up an earlier start date for ModWorld. Currently I tend to run a 1990 one, but I'm sure I can push that back to the 1950's quite easily with a few tweaks.

David, one question - do buildings currently have a settable availability date ? I'm just thinking it may be strange to see a computer store in the 1950's for example.

[avengerbg]

I can understand that, i only said what i said becouse you guys did some increditable work, and its work already done, so it can be not too hard to incorporate it in vanila game. With proper credits and everything for you ofcourse

[mrgarrettscott]

I voted in favor of this change as it is a reflection of how things happen in real life. Instead of specific years, i.e., TV can't be invented until (insert date) go with the idea that a TV can be invented anytime if the prerequisites are complete.

Electronic components can be manufactured anytime. Why not require a degree of tech level with EC that allows the manufacture of so many other items. How about being unable to manufacture the desktop PC until the CPU and EC are researched to a tech level.

[mserhatbalik]

Unless I am horribly wrong, historically there were not a real competition in 1900s. Marketing and sales were just a theorical classes only taught in Harward.

I am not sure what are developer's intentions about this time period. Yes, If we keep core mechanics the same, then less product variety means more competition, but if we want a more accurate representation of that period, maybe reducing the efficiency of factories in that time period might give another type of challenge to players.

[saffgee]

Yes, product realism is one thing, but environment realism is an entirely other thing....there is a work group looking into this type of thing, but not sure we've made too much progress yet tbh.

On a related note, the ideas for things like monopolies and mechanics like that could be really intriguing; imagine a game where you dominate the early 1920's on textile related products, but suddenly find out that in 1927 your business is under investigation for anti-competitive behaviour and that the government has decided in any event to impose a 20% duty on all textile imports...#gutted.
Imagine a world war starts in 1939 and all of a sudden your main factories are commandeered for war production for very low compensation and the price of crude oil just went up by 250%....#ruined.

[Brutus]

Yes, product realism is one thing, but environment realism is an entirely other thing....there is a work group looking into this type of thing, but not sure we've made too much progress yet tbh.

On a related note, the ideas for things like monopolies and mechanics like that could be really intriguing; imagine a game where you dominate the early 1920's on textile related products, but suddenly find out that in 1927 your business is under investigation for anti-competitive behaviour and that the government has decided in any event to impose a 20% duty on all textile imports...#gutted.
Imagine a world war starts in 1939 and all of a sudden your main factories are commandeered for war production for very low compensation and the price of crude oil just went up by 250%....#ruined.

Except that profits were at an all time high because the government allowed price fixing, crushed unions and gave lucrative profitable contracts during the 2nd world war.

Also if oil goes up 250% I'll just make sure to get oil before hand ...

Finally a 20% import duty on textiles matters 0% when you have a monopoly. The only person paying is the customer