Few things to note

[David]

I have no problem with R&D disruption. It's a very good idea, i think.

But i am under the impression that it doesn't affect the AI. I will check this this evening.
And secondly i would also like that it doesn't affect your current research.

It's okay to loose 10% each year, but if you launch a 10 years research for a goal of 555, you will reach 193. R&D is already VERY costly, especially if you add the tech disruption in account, reaching 100 needs a 3x3 R&D center entirely affected to this.

At last, R&D disruption gives you a limit to max R&D level and very soon.
If you (I don't remember, but I imagine) gain 400 for a 10 years R&D.
First round, are at 0, you target 400.
After 10 years, you reach 139. (400*0.9^10)
Then your next target in 10 years is 539
After 10 years your level is 49 (139 disrupted) and you reach 188.
Your next target is 588
After 10 years your level is 66, and you reach 205.
Your next target is 605
After 10 years your level is 71, and you reach 211.
Next target at 611
After 10 years your level is 74, and you reach 213.
Next target at 613
After 10 years your level is 74, and you reach 214.

You see ? R&D with BOTH disruption on current level and targeted level makes R&D nearly useless, or just good to maintain...after 20 or 30 years, it's impossible to progress.
Two ways : Or you makes R&D effect much stronger (and also its value), or you correct this effect.

What you can make is give progression of 400 (400 is a pure theorically number), but on the disrupted R&D.
Here, after 10 years you reach 139, after 10 years more your level is 49 (139 disrupted after 10 years), but you level reached will be 449, not 188.

I understand the fact that even research can become obsolescent but if you don't adapt it and doesn't make R&D more useful, it becomes useless and too costly.

In the next patch, technology disruption will not affect R&D in progress.

[Inarius]

Do you confirm/infirm that R&D disruption does affect AI ?

I am very surprised that AI can reach a so high level in R&D currently.

If necessary, i can send my current game.

[mwyeoh]

The original intention of this design is to enable companies with lower tech to have a chance to catch up. Otherwise, it is very difficult for new companies to close the gap with the leading ones.

I see your point.

In the next patch, technology disruption will not affect R&D in progress.

Wouldnt this then completely negate the effect of technology disruption?

Eg- You begin at 30 and start a 10 year research project which will put you up to say 400.
When you finish, your tech level is 400 and you immediately begin a new project aimed to get you up to 600.
Through this process, your tech will suffer degradation of 65% (=0.9^10). So your final tech level will be 140.
But as soon as you finish research project #2 your tech will be 600 again. A HUGE increase

Getting it right is a balancing act
I believe the current system (research suffers a penalty) is the best way, allowing lower tech companies to catch up. However the forumla needs tweaking.
I believe the best way is to use a squareroot function
My proposed function is

Code: Select all

4*Sqrt(0.2* current tech level)

In this way
At 30% you lose 10 points
At 100% you lose 18 points
At 400% you lose 36 points
At 900% you lose 54 points

However, research projects could have a smaller penalty instead such as

Code: Select all

3*Sqrt(0.1* current tech level) 

This would simulate researchers adapting to new trends

Using a sqrt function takes the sting out of the technology disruption while still increasing the penalty gradually


See my screenshot below for more options

[Inarius]

I strongly agree with mwyeoh, but on a part.


What should be better is to KEEP the effect of R&D.

Imagine that you are trying to improve your R&D by 400.

So, OK, after that you are at 400.

You launch another program of 10 years, heading to 800. But it's not 800, it's 400+400.

It means that, even if WHAT YOU ARE SEARCHING is incredibly advanced, what you researched in the past will slowly become obsolescent.

After 10 years (if we imagine that there is a 10%-year decay) you will have 139.

When your program is finished, you have reached 539.
You launch another program, heading for 939. (concerning this issue, the targeted R&D level should take the expected disruption into account)
But in 10 years, this 400 will only be added to 188, then, etc..

Well I have summarized the 2 hypothesis :


[img]

Tech issue.jpg (125.04 KiB) Viewed 1966 times

[/img]

[David]

Do you confirm/infirm that R&D disruption does affect AI ?

I am very surprised that AI can reach a so high level in R&D currently.

If necessary, i can send my current game.

The tech disruption code applies to both AI and the player. Unless there is a bug, the AI should be affected by tech disruption.

You may wait for the new version and test it. In the meantime, you may play games with tech disruption option disabled.

[David]

After reading your last posts, we have modify the system to the following:

The normal tech disruption is 10% per year, for R&D in progress, the tech disruption is half of that, which is 5% per year.


You may test the game after the patch becomes available, and let us know your feedback and we may fine-tune it further.

[Inarius]

My idea for R&D

3 levels of R&D disruption :


- First level is the current disruption but mostly removed. Limited to 1 or 2%. 2% is fine.
With a 2% disruption, in 10 years you loose 33% of your value.
In 100 years with a full 3x3 R&D center on it, you can reach 1500. But in 50 years you can reach 1136.
With a 1% the maximal tech after 100 years is 2252, and the half max tech in 40 years.
With a 2% the maximal tech after 100 years is 1497, and the half max tech in 30 years
With a 3% the maximal tech after 100 years is 1051, and the half max tech in 20 years
With a 4% the maximal tech after 100 years is 773, and the half max tech in 20 years
With a 5% the maximal tech after 100 years is 591, and the half max tech in 10 years

- Second level is obsolescence or "leading concept" : Each hundred reached, all other competitors will see their tech level on this particular product reduced by 10 or 20%. If the "normal disruption" (perhaps you can make this optionnal, and allows player to choose the level of disrupt they want in custom game ????) is 3%, this will happen 10 times during the game. But if 2 people have the same level of tech, this can be quite fun, because loosing 20% of your R&D is quite devastating. This reflect the reality. For example the first who create hybrid car (WHY NOT MAKING HYBRID CAR in the game ??) or ABS etc..etc.. had a great advantage on other. This would simulate the effect of a tech level, which is not "linear" IRL.

- Third level is "unused tech". If you don't use a find, it will quickly disappear. So if you don't produce something in relation with the tech level, your tech level will decrease by a 5%-10% per year (the current disruption). This to avoid company who buy every tech without a use.

[mwyeoh]

After reading your last posts, we have modify the system to the following:

The normal tech disruption is 10% per year, for R&D in progress, the tech disruption is half of that, which is 5% per year.


You may test the game after the patch becomes available, and let us know your feedback and we may fine-tune it further.

Well it is a beta, so changes do not have to be final, and we can play around with them until it seems 'just right'

[Inarius]

10% on research AND current technology is too much, though.

10/5% is a test, i'll try it.

[Inarius]

I have a new bug on the game.

Each time I try to buy a media firm the game crashes.
I don't know if somebody has the same bug ?

It crashes even when i don't have enough money (so you can try it at the beginning of a game)

Oh, and last bug :

When you take a loan, if AFTER THAT the loan rate changes, you have to pay more of interests.
I'm not sure it is expected, but i don't think it's true unless it's a variable loan ?