Capitalism 2 and Capitalism Lab Forum

I don't know David..

I mean I think it's great the game has a lot of options to totally play it in the style you want, using either stock options, real estate or the "normal" way of setting up a company with factories and/or retail stores.

For myself however, I never really bother with stock. I've played around with it a few times but it doesn't really appeal to me. I usually just build my "empire" with factories, retail stores and R&D centers and such. That's the capitalism game as I learned it and still enjoy it.

If it's for players that are new to the game, I don't know if it makes sense to adjust the way the game starts by just taking the focus away from the "core" functions and focusing more on stock and real estate.

A "real" tutorial is often pretty clear for totally new players who want to jump right in and see what the game is about. Maybe there could be like 3 (or more) different interactive tutorials that focus on the different parts of the game, to really show it's possible to play the game the way you want. For example a stock tutorial, a real estate tutorial and a business tutorial. That way people can start with something that appeals to them in the game, and als learn about all the other aspects of the game when and if they desire.

I'm also not sure if there are plans to bring scenario-style games back other than the challenge games, but I enjoyed those as well, and they can be an eye opener sometimes.
During the scenarios of Cap II there were some scenarios that focused on product(range)s I would normally not use, but through using them I started appreciating them and incorporating them into my games afterwards. It's a great way to learn about the game while you play, and it would be a shame to lose this altogether I think..

I absolutely love this game . Thanks again guys , you brought my childhood back but I saw a few tiny glitches on the stock market and a few aside:

*when you buy stock you see the percentage of profits(which is great) but after you sell that stock you still see the company tab even though you own 0%(It is not OK). Can't there be any possibility after you sell all owning stock to x company you no longer have to see it(in the below companies tab)?

*land values grow and grow and grow...indeed it is a fact, but to grow 800% in 10-30 years it is a little exagerated . Can't there be any calculations in the background to have this price increase as per the town economic evolution and also as per the value invested by companies in real estate in that specific town?(for example if a town has X lots in total- out of which y lots are government and natural resources...then x-y=z(total available lots for sale). If companies produce and sell in that town this means total town profits would be A...if next year the total profit value of the goods is increased this means A+1ish...which would increase the net value of the lots sold in that town(and in a recesion if the town total profit value is A-1 and companies move out this would mean the value would decrease and not by 5-10% but as a min % of the total town profit loss also affecting real estate and commercial buildings.

*Best example. Started the game 240% difficulty(Inflation activated, 100mil in cash)
1. buy back 50% of the company(owning it 100%)
2. with the other 40ish mil buy 2X2lots in very good areas in all towns(left with 5ish mil- at most)
3. take credit of 100mil
4. buy stock of 70-80mil investing in real estate, retail and diversified companies
5. sell stock at around 50ish$ some companies even more in max 5-10 years
6. now I have almost 200mil(repay bank loan)- take into consideration that some companies issued new shares and I had a higher % than what i owned at first.
7. now I have around 90mil. what do I do? I wait for a market boom and once every 6 month issue new shares for a number of years untill i have 5% from company ownage. Now the company after 28 years and only 2X2 lots in all towns is worth around 6 billion $(my 5% almost 300mil) and 3 bil cash for the company
8. wait for the recession to come in . BUY back at almost 1/2 1/3 the stocks and now I have 1 bil cash...3mil and 4 masions ...company ownage 100% (real estate lots 2X2 woth 400mil )
9. repeat 7-8
10. $$$ get bored and retire . print screens 1 2 and 3
11. Start new game and try to reach same level old school . 20 times tried this at leat and got broke almost always after 15-20 years

OK...so now I understand where the problem is...why I can't evolve standard as others...Consumer price index(it is impossible to reach 8thousand . Please double check the calculations behind this because in real life such a level would mean that I would need 1000$ to buy a loaf of bread at least meaning that the inflation level would be sky high and not as mentioned in the table with a 11%.

Thanks guys and hope that in your next update you would solve this issue

xflexmanx wrote:OK...so now I understand where the problem is...why I can't evolve standard as others...Consumer price index(it is impossible to reach 8thousand . Please double check the calculations behind this because in real life such a level would mean that I would need 1000$ to buy a loaf of bread at least meaning that the inflation level would be sky high and not as mentioned in the table with a 11%.

Thanks guys and hope that in your next update you would solve this issue

When the inflation has reached 100 times (10000%), banks will reissue new banknotes of smaller value (1% of current value), deflating all the currency on the market to make the current figures more manageable under the effect of inflation.

You may take a look at this page: http://www.capitalismlab.com/inflation.html

So when you keep playing the game, the numeric values of prices may go down to a more manageable level.

I absolutely love this game . Thanks again guys , you brought my childhood back but I saw a few tiny glitches on the stock market and a few aside:

*when you buy stock you see the percentage of profits(which is great) but after you sell that stock you still see the company tab even though you own 0%(It is not OK). Can't there be any possibility after you sell all owning stock to x company you no longer have to see it(in the below companies tab)?

*land values grow and grow and grow...indeed it is a fact, but to grow 800% in 10-30 years it is a little exagerated . Can't there be any calculations in the background to have this price increase as per the town economic evolution and also as per the value invested by companies in real estate in that specific town?(for example if a town has X lots in total- out of which y lots are government and natural resources...then x-y=z(total available lots for sale). If companies produce and sell in that town this means total town profits would be A...if next year the total profit value of the goods is increased this means A+1ish...which would increase the net value of the lots sold in that town(and in a recesion if the town total profit value is A-1 and companies move out this would mean the value would decrease and not by 5-10% but as a min % of the total town profit loss also affecting real estate and commercial buildings.

*Best example. Started the game 240% difficulty(Inflation activated, 100mil in cash)
1. buy back 50% of the company(owning it 100%)
2. with the other 40ish mil buy 2X2lots in very good areas in all towns(left with 5ish mil- at most)
3. take credit of 100mil
4. buy stock of 70-80mil investing in real estate, retail and diversified companies
5. sell stock at around 50ish$ some companies even more in max 5-10 years
6. now I have almost 200mil(repay bank loan)- take into consideration that some companies issued new shares and I had a higher % than what i owned at first.
7. now I have around 90mil. what do I do? I wait for a market boom and once every 6 month issue new shares for a number of years untill i have 5% from company ownage. Now the company after 28 years and only 2X2 lots in all towns is worth around 6 billion $(my 5% almost 300mil) and 3 bil cash for the company
8. wait for the recession to come in . BUY back at almost 1/2 1/3 the stocks and now I have 1 bil cash...3mil and 4 masions ...company ownage 100% (real estate lots 2X2 woth 400mil )
9. repeat 7-8
10. $$$ get bored and retire . print screens 1 2 and 3
11. Start new game and try to reach same level old school . 20 times tried this at leat and got broke almost always after 15-20 years

Warren Buffett has proven that it is possible to become a billionaires by making big bets buying distressed securities and assets and selling them when the stock market has gone irrationally high.

But in the real life, extremely few people have the guts to buy massive amounts of stock during recession, let alone betting one's entire fortune on it by taking huge loans and buy stock with a very high leverage ratio, which is deemed extremely risky, and is psychologically unbearable to the vast majority of people.

In the game, you do not fear the risk of losing your real money and therefore you could trade stock actually in a more rational manner and thus able to make far more money out of it than in the real life.

Thanks David and have a great 2013!
I'll download right away the patch

Are dividends paid annually in CapLab?

therealevan wrote:Are dividends paid annually in CapLab?

Yes

There's one exploit that has bothered me more than any other involving the stock market in the Capitalism series -- the ease with which one may manipulate the stock market to create, essentially, limitless amounts of money out of nothing.

To explain better, and using (a lot of) screenshots, I'll demonstrate the exploit, using my current game:

This game is about 19 years in, the difficulty rating is 238%, and the Cap Lab world has been in recession for a little over one year (which helps a bit, given that stock prices are depressed), so profits are down significantly, though interest rates are still high. Here's the stock market snapshot, before I begin this exploit:



My company already owns 20% of the company Platinum Hammer, which is convenient, as it's one of the two companies I'll use to demonstrate the exploit -- it's a Tech-Focused company, so it doesn't have a lot of facilities, and it is cash-rich. The other company I'll use, United Array, is the same.

Since my company will need a lot of cash to take over at least 50+% of each of these two companies, let's take a look at my borrowing capacity:



So, my company's total credit line is over a billion dollars, just enough to do this operation. First, I'll take over the two companies:



...As you can see, Platinum Hammer has just over $600 million to work with, while United Array just under $540 million. Now that I control these two companies, I'll use them to buy up all 94% of the available stock in my chief competitor, Phat Group (whose stock price started at just about $5/share, as I've been hammering them pretty well, in-game):



So, the stage is set -- I can now use the remaining cash of United Array to buy Phat Group stock from Platinum Hammer (by clicking on United Array as the buyer, and Platinum Hammer's shares as the target for purchase). Then, I simply have Platinum Hammer buy Phat Group stock back from United Array... and, I repeat this process, over and over, until I've manipulated Phat Group's stock price, as so:



Notice Phat Group's spanking-new Market Capitalization. I could, quite easily, continue this process as long as I so wanted, building up enough of a market cap that the eventual sell-off would net enough money to buy out ALL competitors this same in-game day, October 30, 2009. But, I'll stop here, and sell off the shares at the new, inflated share prices:



Notice the cash amounts for both Platinum Hammer and United Array, after the sell-off. Obviously, *MY* company doesn't have this cash, yet, so I'll need to merge with one or both of these companies. So, I sell off my United Array stock, that I might have enough capital to merge with Platinum Hammer. Then, I buy back 75% of the Untied Array stock, to merge with it, too. The ending result, after I've payed my billion dollar debt back, is as follows:



I now have over $10 billion in cash to play with. Not bad, for one day's work....

I'll contribute some ideas to fix this, next.

RougeRogue wrote:There's one exploit that has bothered me more than any other involving the stock market in the Capitalism series -- the ease with which one may manipulate the stock market to create, essentially, limitless amounts of money out of nothing.

To explain better, and using (a lot of) screenshots, I'll demonstrate the exploit, using my current game:

....

I now have over $10 billion in cash to play with. Not bad, for one day's work....

I'll contribute some ideas to fix this, next.

The simplest, most obvious solution, would be for the stock price not to change, when there's a transaction between two companies that are both subsidiaries of the same, parent company (however far up a corporate tree that goes)... but, that doesn't exactly reflect what happens in the "real world," as it would be both unfair, and illegal, to, say, have ABC sell ESPN stock to Pixar, if ESPN were selling at a depressed price, due to current market conditions (yes, I'm pretending that ABC, ESPN, and Pixar are all traded publicly (while being controlled by a majority-holding Disney Corp), and not wholly-owned by Disney, in this poorly chosen analogy). It could also establish a "loss" for a company that might be able to take advantage of such a loss, for tax purposes, while still maintaining control of the stock in question, under the parent (Disney) company -- the IRS would most certainly balk at that, in the real world. However, this may still be the best, most easily-implemented, solution, but one that creates brand new problems, as it would allow for easier corporate consolidation under one, wholly-owned subsidiary company (as I could simply take 50+% of any company that has a large holding in another company that I would like to have my company, or a wholly-owned subsidiary, merge with, in order to get that company's shares at the current share price).

Otherwise, we may have only more complex, harder-to-implement solutions, such as an unseen Board of Directors, that limits the amount of money that may be used for stock purchase each year (in non-stock-focused companies), but such a solution is far from perfect. Perhaps, have the game count the number of stock transactions between subsidiary companies, and have the game arbitrarily post a threat of "SEC Investigation for Market Manipulation," disallowing any further transactions for a time, to stay clear of SEC suspicion?

Most solutions I might come up with involve a more detailed and realistic version of the stock market (such as, integrating a proxy system), which would involve much more coding in the game, and I realize the easier the solution, the more likely (and, cost-effective) it would be to implement. I'll think more on this, and post again....